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Subject:In shambles we ride
Time:06:55 pm
Greetings, fellow Latinists! A friend has asked me to help translate a cycling club motto into Latin, so that they can put it on their jerseys. The motto is 'in shambles we ride', so I've had a browse though various options for suitable vocabulary, and came up with the following options:

Shambles - congeries, congeria, confusio, conturbatio, consternatio

Ride - eo, veho, curro

On that basis, the best translation I could come up with was something like 'confusione curramus', on the basis that it has alliteration, and that the word 'confusio' (though not 'curro') is recognisable to people who don't know Latin.

But I thought I'd run it past the group before anyone starts ordering jerseys with the motto on them! Does anyone have any better thoughts, or have I made any elementary grammatical errors thanks to general rustiness?

Thanks!

ETA: - actually, currere is second conjugation, isn't it - so do I want confusione curremus? Told you I was rusty!
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filialucis
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-01 06:14 pm (UTC)
To take your last point first, you want currimus. currere is third conjugation; curramus is subjunctive "let us run/ride", and curremus is future indicative.

I'm not sure to what extent confusio actually denotes a disorderly crowd of people rather than a disorder or confusion of something (a quick squizz at L&S yields confusio religionum, for instance).

If it's admissible for your purpose to dispense with most of the confused/disorderly aspect of your cyclists' formation, I would suggest going to the root caterva (crowd/troop/band), because this phrase is a neat opportunity to use one of those cool -im adverbs and caterva offers us one. So I would translate it as catervatim currimus. (For pronunciation purposes, put the stresses thusly: catervátim cúrrimus.)
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strange_complex
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Time:2011-08-01 06:26 pm (UTC)
Thanks on the verb - I'm glad I got someone to double-check that!

I like the sound of catervatim currimus, and you probably are right about confusio having limited application to a group of people. But caterva maybe loses a little too much of the shambolic element, which I think they are quite keen on. Well, I guess I can present the options, explain what the resonances of each are, and let them choose.
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filialucis
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-01 06:49 pm (UTC)
Hmm... been trawling L&S just for the fun of it, and there are a lot more of these -im adverbs than anybody ever realises. How about undatim, which unfortunately sacrifices the alliteration but is attested in Ammianus as meaning "in a throng"?

The shambolic element is actually expressed neatly by the familiar old noun turba, but sadly the ancients do not seem to have bequeathed us any such adverb as "turbatim". If you want to use that to preserve the chaotic connotation, you could go for turbis currimus.

I still like my first suggestion best, though. And what gave me the idea is that the phrase stipante caterva occurs somewhere in the Aeneid, where Vergil uses it (IIRC) to describe the jostling crowd surrounding Dido in Carthage. I think the connotation there is chaotic/random enough to cover the sense your cyclists are after. (But I'm biased, being a bit of an alliteration junkie. *grin*)
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brummiepaul
Subject:Shambolic Element
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-02 10:42 am (UTC)
Hello Latin Scholars!
Thanks for your input so far.

I'm the "friend" who started this I'm afraid.
I can report from the cyclists that "Shambles" is the key word here.
They also kind of like Veho as the modern french Velo for bicycle appears to have descended directly from it. Though it sounds like it may not be applicable in this instance. so be it.

I guess what we're after is a phrase to convey a group who're riding together, but in a disordered fashion. (is that help or hindrance??)

Many thanks again for your thoughts on this so far!

Paul.
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strange_complex
Subject:Re: Shambolic Element
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-02 06:24 pm (UTC)
You can use the verb 'veho', but you need the 'we' form of the verb, which would be 'vehimus'. 'Veho' on its own means 'I ride', not 'we ride'. The main reason I was going for a form of 'curro' instead in the post above was simply that it alliterates with some of the words you could use for 'in shambles', so provides a nice, neat, motto-ish feel to the phrase. But 'veho' conveys the meaning of riding just as well, if not slightly better.

So some of your options are:

'catervatim vehimus' - though here, the 'catervatim' part is really just 'in a crowd', rather than 'in shambles'.
'turbis vehimus' - the 'turbis' bit here is a bit more chaotic and shambling, as in the modern word 'turbulent'. The meaning would be roughly 'in a jostling crowd we ride'.
'consternatione vehimus' - this would be more like 'in confusion / disorder we ride'.

Let me know if any of those are any good for you, or if we still need to tweak this a little more. In any of the above, you can have 'currimus' instead of 'vehimus' - either is just as good, really, and it's a question of what sounds neatest (or even looks neatest on a jersey).
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cnoocy
Subject:Re: Shambolic Element
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-02 08:05 pm (UTC)
Actually, you want "vehimur" rather than "vehimus" since "to ride" is the passive meaning of "veho". I should also note that "veho" and "velo" are probably not actually related.
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strange_complex
Subject:Re: Shambolic Element
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-07 07:12 pm (UTC)
Hi Paul! A few more people have commented on this post now, so there are some further suggestions and ideas.

On further consideration, I'd recommend staying away from 'veho'. I've just looked up its entry in the most comprehensive Latin dictionary available online, and its sense refers more to a vehicle carrying passengers (e.g. a ship), rather than to an active rider as you have on a bike. Other commenters are right that it isn't related to 'velo', as well - that is a shortened version of velocipede, the first half of which comes from velocitas - 'speed'. The best option instead is probably 'curro', which can be used for riding on a horse, so is probably the closest ancient equivalent for riding a bike.

That means the simplest, most direct translations of your phrase would be either 'turbis currimus' ('in a jostling crowd we ride') or 'consternatione currimus' ('in confusion / disorder we ride'). But do have a browse through the other suggestions which people have made - particularly falmouthroad, below.
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falmouthroad
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-05 12:28 pm (UTC)
'furentes currentes' ~ 'mad cyclists/runners'

'furentes currimus' ~ 'we cycle like loonies'

'dum curro, furo' ~ 'I go nuts when I cycle'

'dum pedalo, baccho' (a variation on the above with an invented word 'pedalo')

'nec minus Edonis furit, talis curro' (I speed along no less than a Bacchant goes wild - with apologies to Propertius (1.3.5ff))
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falmouthroad
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-05 12:45 pm (UTC)
If I have missed the nuance, and the thrust is hapless disorganisation rather than nuttiness, then how about

'mi iuvat nullo currere consilio' (again with apologies to Propertius (1.1.6))
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falmouthroad
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-05 01:12 pm (UTC)
effrenati veloci cum pede eamus

Literally, 'let's go unrestrained/in an unruly manner with a swift foot' but with the intention of alluding to French 'frein' (derived from 'frenum') - i.e. the brakes (on a bike) and English 'velocipede'=bicycle (from which French 'velo' (rather than from 'veho' as I think was suggested)).

I.e. 'No brakes, let's cycle'
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falmouthroad
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-05 01:21 pm (UTC)
non lupati, lunatici
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strange_complex
Link:(Link)
Time:2011-08-07 06:47 pm (UTC)
Thanks so much for these - it looks like you had some real fun with the phrase, and you've come up with some great ideas! Going back to your comment a few lines above, I think the sense here is indeed hapless disorganisation rather than nuttiness. But there are still plenty of fun ideas here, which I'll pass on to the original enquirer.
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