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Subject:Need a breakdown of this.
Time:05:10 pm
I need a word-for-word breakdown of the following text, because every frakking online Latin dictionary starts having fits by the time I get to the 6th line:

Pater noster, qui es in caelis:
sanctificetur Nomen Tuum;
adveniat Regnum Tuum;
fiat voluntas Tua,
sicut in caelo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
Sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;
et ne nos inducas in tentationem;
sed libera nos a Malo.

Yes, it is the Our Father prayer. I know the English translation. What I need is a word-for-word breakdown so I can make a new version of it. Also, a pronunciation guide would be nice too.

Also, my source for this does not give a Latin translation of this part of the prayer:

[For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
now and for ever.]

EDIT: This one site I found gives "for-debtors our" as a translation of "debitoribus nostris." Looked on several sites for the base Latin word for a debitor, and found that it is "debitor." But I can't figure out how to make it plural. I want to change the line "Sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris" to the Latin for "And protect us from our debitors." So far, I have "quod servo nos a debitum nostris." I know "debitum" is wrong, but I don't know what the plural for "debitor" is.
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iiiskaaa
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 01:24 am (UTC)
What do you mean by a breakdown? Like, you want to know the cases and tenses and how everything's functioning in the sentence?
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alasharia_la
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 01:32 am (UTC)
I'm presuming (probably erroneously) that she wants a verbatim translation
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fayanora
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:25 am (UTC)
Your assumption is not erroneous.
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fayanora
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:19 am (UTC)
word-for-word translation so I know where to replace words. Like, I already know "caelis" is Heaven.
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kengr
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 06:36 pm (UTC)
"word for word" translations just plain *don't work*.

Languages don't work that way. Words have multiple meanings. Say "qwerty" has only two meanings in gobbledegook. In English, each of those meanings may be represented by *different* words. Each of which may have multiple meanings *if taken by themselves*

You *have* to translate "phrase by phrase", and even then, context is important. Sometimes it's not sufficient to translate by *sentence, because you need the rest of the paragraph or even larger parts of the text to supply the context.

Classic example from when they were first trying machine translation back in the 50s: "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" translated into Russian and back into English came out "The vodka is good but the meat is rotten."

*That* is the sort of thing word-by-word translation gets you. And why translators earn big bucks.

For something like this, you need someone who is fluent in English *and* Latin, and who also knows the history of the Prayer.

Among other things, the "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever and ever" is only part of *some* versions of the prayer. You'll need a religious scholar to tell you whether it was in the oldest texts or added later.

I do know that it was *not* part of the Catholic version back in the 60s and 70s.

Like, I already know "caelis" is Heaven.

Perfect example. It can be translated into English as "Heaven". but I believe it also means things like "heavens" (as in *sky*).

Heck. The word translated as "spirit" in most of the New Testament means "air" or "breath". Thus, it is *quite* arguable that the phrase "And his spirit left him" was merely a poetic way of saying "He quit breathing" (ie "he died") in the original Greek.

So like I said, you need someone *fluent* in Latin, and who is willing to help you craft something that'd come *close* to meaning the same thing in Latin as your English text.

I say "close" because that's all you can do in translation between languages. The less concrete the concepts being discussed, the less likely that the English and the "translation" will mean the same things. There are subtle connotations of words that will *not* translate.

Don't forget that Latin is a far more *complex* language than English. It has lots of cases and the like that don't exist in English. Which means that the word listed as a "translation" of an English word may change *drastically* in actual usage (think of "to be" which can be words as different as "is", "am", and "are" depending on sentence structure)
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nerdfury
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-24 09:48 am (UTC)
This.

Languages are NOT Legos. You can't just swap red blocks for green and expect it to work. There's many generations of context and culture behind every word, not to mention modern context and changes over time. Languages are fluid, ever-changing and ever-evolving; not word-for-word interchangeable.

Also, learn to ask for help politely and thank those that assist you.
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forlan
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:36 am (UTC)
Translating word-by-word is going to sound incredibly awkward? For example, the second line is literally "may your name be sanctified/hallowed", but if you translate it a word at a time and leave it in that order, you get "may [it] be hallowed name your".

I'm not sure what the purpose of that would be; it might help if you could be more specific. It would probably be easier to just let us know what words you want to replace with what - that's the impression I get of what you want, at least?

Also, my knowledge is a little fuzzy, but I'm fairly certain the last two lines of the Lord's Prayer weren't in the original, and were added by Protestant monks later. I've never seen it in Latin.

Edited at 2010-11-18 02:37 am (UTC)
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fayanora
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 03:40 am (UTC)
Yes, I'm aware of how awkward it would sound. I need it anyway, so I can determine what the words mean and what forms of the base word they are.

Wait, never mind, I found something online.
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teaclouds
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:36 am (UTC)
Our father, you who are in the heavens; may your name be sanctified; may your kingdom come; may your will be done; just as in heaven, also on earth. Give us every day our bread; and dismiss our debts for us, just as we also dismiss our debtors; and let you not lead us into temptation, but free us from evil.
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alasharia_la
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:40 am (UTC)
This.
I also want to add that the "For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, forever and ever" are, as far as I know, an Anglican thing.
I say this only because I used to be a Scout Leader with a few Catholics in my Troop (both Roman and Irish Catholic) who'd never heard it before.
I also have never seen it translated into Latin for the Pater Noster
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napoleonofnerds
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 06:36 am (UTC)
"Irish Catholic" isn't a religious affiliation, it's an ethnic one. There's a complicated explanation of why Protestants (not just Anglicans) use a different version of the prayer, and it has to do with manuscript families and confused monks.
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alasharia_la
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 09:25 am (UTC)
It always is confused moks, isn't it? ;P
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svalar_unnir
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 06:52 am (UTC)
It's a Catholic thing as well. I think it might be a bit old-fashioned though, as we didn't say it at our parish, but they said it in my grandparents' parish.
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amerrydeath
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:51 am (UTC)
Father our, who is in heavens,
may it be hallowed name your;
may it come kingdom your;
may it be done will your;
just as in heaven, and on Earth.
Bread our daily give us today;
and forgive us sins ours,
Just as we forgive debtors our;
and not us lead into temptation;
but deliver us from Evil.

?
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amerrydeath
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:55 am (UTC)
Second-to-last line should read 'and let you not lead us into temptation.' Second-person subjunctive instead of imperative (like 'da').
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amerrydeath
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 03:10 am (UTC)
I've translated 'debita' as sins but it literally means 'debts' (thus 'debtors' in the next line).
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(Deleted comment)

alasharia_la
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 02:53 am (UTC)
It's interesting that the extra part only appears in English in the KJ Bible...
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amerrydeath
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-11-18 04:19 am (UTC)
'Quod servo nos a debitum nostris' means 'what I serve us from debitum with us'. Latin has five cases for nouns, depending on what preposition or verb is used with that noun. You need the ablative case for 'from'.

'And protect us from our debtors' would be something like 'nos custodi(te) a debitoribus nostris'. Which is very inelegant.
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chrysologus400
Link:(Link)
Time:2010-12-01 03:59 am (UTC)
Why do you want to change it?
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